Modern Leadership: A People-First Mentality Drives Success — VMware

Host: Claire Craig, Organizational Development Specialist, Adobe

Guests: Jef Tyler, Creative Director of Brand Experience, VMware

Krista Passarelli Patterson, Director of Strategic Partnerships and Brand
Experience Operations, VMware 

Intro: You’re plugged in to The Power of Teamwork. As the champion of teamwork, Adobe lets you in on what all types of teams are doing to achieve greatness together and what they’re learning along the way. These stories show that success starts with We.

Krista: I’m going to be 50% responsible for your success. You are 50% responsible. So we need to work on that together. Teamwork is the ability to play the role you have been assigned, but also to be responsible. Be able to backstop everybody else.

Jef: We get together as leaders and we all come to an agreed upon set of goals and expectations It’s an all-ships-rise situation, right? We all roll our sleeves up. We all work towards the same ends because if we do that, we’re all going to succeed. We’re all going to be benefiting from it.

Claire: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to The Power of Teamwork. I’m your host Claire Craig, and today we’re learning how to build stronger brands and experiences. I’m happy to welcome our friends from VMware’s brand experience team to the show here with us, Director of Creative Jef Tyler, and Krista Passarelli Patterson, director of strategic partnerships.

Welcome to both of you. Thank you. So good to be here. I’m so happy to have both of you here on this lovely morning. So let’s dive in. I want the audience to get to know each of you a little bit better. Krista, let’s start with you. I want to hear about how you got to VMware. 

Krista: My background is all in public relations, or at least early background.

We won’t talk about how long ago that was — both educational and early in my career. And I kind of have gone through lots of iterations around field marketing, corporate marketing, and landed in brand and really love it. Part of that looks like thought leadership. 

Claire: So tell me a little bit more about that idea of thought leadership and how that transitioned into brand building.

Krista: Sure. I think it’s actually a really strong element of brand building, whether it’s your personal brand or the corporate brand. And what I like to do is find the sweet spot between the two. That’s where all the magic happens, where you’re able to pull a person’s personal brand, their vision of the future, which is what thought leadership is actually, and marry it with the corporate objectives.

Claire: I love that pairing of that personal element into the corporate element and how it’s not one or the other, but really a true marriage of both that makes a strong brand. Exactly. Absolutely. Okay, Jef, over to you. I want to hear about your background. I know you have a lot of background in audience experience, but tell me about your journey to VMware.

Jef: I started many years ago, actually in the film industry, worked in that for a few years. Realized that it was fun to make movies. I didn’t really like the people, if I can say that out loud, and then went off to a product and brand design company, worked there for four years and then started my own company for eight years and then got a call from VMware and then headed over and that’s where I’m at now.

Claire: Now, a little birdie told me something about maybe you quitting a job at a time and how that influenced where you are today. Do you want to tell me a little bit more? Because that’s a pretty bold move to quit a job. 

Jef: That was the film industry job. So I was lucky enough very early in my career to have the worst boss I’ve ever had.

And everybody should have a horrible boss, especially if you’re going to be a leader one day, because it gives you a really good litmus test for what not to do. And so I had a point where it was very clear that my boss had no concern for my future or for my career, and I was early enough in my career that I knew.

If he wasn’t going to advocate for me, I needed to. And so I quit. And that’s when I left. And I went to the product design company. I went to Frog Design. And I’ve been lucky enough since then to have amazing bosses the entire rest of my career. So I’ve got these really good guideposts from a leadership position that helped me as a leader to then determine what’s the best way to work with my people.

Claire: That’s a really interesting way to look at it. I’ve never thought of that before, that everyone really needs to have that one bad boss, maybe early in their life as a guidepost. Krista, when you think about your work, how does that connect between the work you do and how you two work together? 

Krista: It’s a good question. I think I’ll start with the partnership side of my business, although the operations side does also drive a lot of teamwork as well. But the partnership side is really important to our customer experience. We really leverage those partnerships for white-glove experiences for mostly the top customers that we care about.

And part of that is how does our brand show up to them on the things that we are delivering to them, whether it’s advertising, whether it’s tchotchkes t-shirts, those kinds of giveaways. And Jef partners with me on how to best represent it visually. And then also on the inside, how do we work with our teams to make sure that they’re working well together?

So it kind of is all matrixed, I guess is the right word, but definitely interconnected. 

Jef: And there is, to jump on to what Chris was saying, with the partnerships as we’re reaching out to the client bases, and it’s not just about how do we make sure that they’re doing it, but her team is really great at building enablement tools that help them to communicate the brand effectively and on brand themselves on the more tactical pieces so that it allows our teams to really focus on the strategic assets that we need to work on.

And they do a really wonderful job of building these tools that enable good branding throughout with that entire client base. 

Krista: Thanks. That’s a really good point because that is all of our internal folks outside of marketing, leverage the things that we do to make sure that they’re the best brand ambassadors they can be.

So we, I guess, really partner in maybe three ways, definitely the enablement piece, how do we deliver going straight to our customers through partnerships, and then on the operation side, how are we best executing on the budgets and the goals that we have? 

Jef: Yeah. 

Claire: Yeah, it sounds like you work really closely together, especially in those three areas when you are working together, especially in a creative field or when there’s a lot of moving pieces.

Sometimes what comes with that is a little bit of competing priorities or conflicting ideas. So how do you deal with any kind of conflict that arises between your two teams? 

Krista: You can go first, or I can go first. 

Jef: So we don’t really have conflict and the reason being as a leadership team. So first of all, VMware uses OKRs, objectives and key results. And we get those from the top down, but as a leadership team within the brand experience team, we get together as leaders and we all come to an agreed upon set of goals and expectations. And then we follow the same North Stars. And so then we’re all working towards that same, and so we don’t really put into place a situation where we have a competitive nature within the team. The way that I always describe our team is it’s an all-ships-rise situation, right? We all roll our sleeves up. We all work towards the same ends because if we do that, we’re all going to succeed. We’re all going to be benefiting from it. 

Claire: What I really like about that is that as you set a common goal, what could have come out as conflict actually transitions to more of a collaborative approach. 

Krista: I’ll add to that where we have sometimes changed the goal midstream because it wasn’t the right goal set out ahead of time to either support the business or the brand. We have done that. 

Jef: Yeah. 

Krista: And that helps. 

Claire: Yeah, I love that. So right now, as both of you know, one of the hottest topics in the industry is AI. And a lot of people are concerned about it because they’re thinking, “Oh my gosh, machines are going to take my job” or something like that. Or they’re just intimidated by it because it’s so new.

So I’m really curious to hear, how are your teams thinking about AI? How are you using it? And how can you see it improving human interaction? 

Jef: Yeah, there’s been a ton of conversations around that. First of all, there’s all the different flavors of AI, right? I always refer to it as an AI sandwich, right? Because the important parts are still the human parts on each side of it. People are going to know, are going to need to know, how do you write good prompts, right? I think that’s going to be a little Wild West for a time. Right now, with all of the pieces that are out, like Adobe has Firefly, which they have entirely trained through Adobe Stock.

So you can actually use it for commercial, because you have provenance of where everything that generated that image comes from and for all the people that are like, ‘Oh no, I’m creative I’m gonna lose my job because of AI,” You’re going to to use AI to do your job better and nobody’s gonna replace you because of it. 

Claire: Mm hmm. 

Jef: With those production houses AI takes the tactical off the table I’ve got templates and I just need to flow and it needs to align to our brand standards and where AI recognizes — these are the brand standards.

This is how this works. This is how the brand system works, and it can implement that across these assets, regardless of size, space, or whatever and add in the generative AI portion where it can throw in headlines and copy that align with your voice and tone of your brand attributes. That’s great. And then pulling all the tactical off that really focuses the entire team to just work where we can add strategic value and then we’re lifting the rest of the brand.

So I think that there’s a lot of power that will be there in terms of other tactical. We do photoshoots, we shoot video to have AI go through and automatically meta tag that for us so that it’s immediately searchable. In frame, I own our other applications and we can go and grab that stuff. I just see a lot of time savings in terms of the tactical.

Krista: Yeah, and I totally agree. But I have used it or have asked my team to use it in a slightly different way in that when we’re talking to people, whether it’s thought leadership or brand ambassadorship or partnership, I want to extract information, so I ask AI, what questions do I need to ask to cover XYZ?

And I like to look for what I haven’t thought of. And so then I’m learning from it, it’s learning from me, and I’ve got new questions to ask. Not the answers necessarily, but that’s kind of where I’m at. 

Claire: Yeah, I really like both of your perspectives. I would love to hear, you know, we talk about AI, we talk about collaboration, especially on a global scale. I’d love to hear an example of a story where you really utilize that collaboration on a high level to have that result of that all-ships-rise-together kind of mentality with your team. So either Krista or Jef, do you have a story that you can think of where you really emphasize that collaboration? 

Krista: I do, actually. We talked about this yesterday around any sort of large-scale brand experience events when you are putting on, let’s say 18,000 people, an event for that many people, it literally is all hands on deck and everybody has a role to play. But as you look at what the experiences and brand in my definition is every place we touch our customers or they see us or they hear us or they interact with us and in an event like that, they not only get what you’ve curated from a visual perspective and a written messaging perspective as you deliver keynotes and breakouts and those things, but they also get conversations on the fly on the floor there in your booth, they’re having one-on-one conversations over lunch really is the breadth of the team.

Everyone has a role to play, and everyone rises when it’s successful. 

Jef: Yeah, I was actually yesterday talking with our head of event security because we just had our VMware Explorer event in Las Vegas, which was huge and was one of those all-hands-on-deck things. And he was even mentioning, we always tend to focus on the creative and the experience.

And as Krista has said, those touchpoints and in talking with him, he was like, yeah, I always want to make sure that we keep security visible enough that people feel safe, but otherwise basically invisible because we don’t want it to affect their experience. And so it really drove home for me how linked all of the different roles are outside of what we do and that teamwork that we go, because he and I have a lot of conversations.

On site as we’re going through stuff, if everybody works together, you have a great event and it’s pretty key. 

Krista: It’s interesting to me. I think it’s like a ref in youth sports. You want that ref to facilitate but not impact the game. We don’t have a lot of those, by the way, in youth sports, but if they’re really don’t I know exactly if they’re really good at it.

That’s what that looks like. And so our whole team, whether it’s the design team, the operations team, the partnership team, those working with speakers, content, security, food, beverage, housing, whatever it is, we’re all there, yeah, to make everything go smoothly, but also invisible that to me in that venue or that deliverable is the right answer and makes it all go well when it works. 

Claire: I love it. You can tell collaboration is that key that blueprint for innovation and great movements forward, whether that’s with a big event or with AI. So we’re going to go to break, but after the break, we’re going to dive into the keys for creating a winning team. We’ll be right back.

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Claire: We’re back and ready to dig into the teams behind the curtain. Now, we’ve heard a lot about how important leadership is and both of your leadership styles, but I’m really curious to learn what are the secrets to building stronger teams at VMware? 

Jef: I think first of all, it’s a people-first mentality. One of the things that makes our team and when I talk about our team, I’m talking about the whole brand experience team, which is over 90 people. Kind of a unicorn is you’ve got a lot of amazingly talented people and nobody brings ego to the door. Everybody checks their ego at the door, goes in. And it really is about working towards a shared goal. And as leaders, we’ve taken a lot of strides to try and make sure that we open up channels of communication.

We’re as transparent as possible. Nothing’s off the table. And just really making sure that people feel empowered to do their job, they feel safe, we don’t micromanage, we say, you know your goals, you’re an adult, go figure it out. If you need something, come let us know. But you give them the power to do their job, you have faith in them, and you let them do the work.

Krista: Like you say, the leadership at a minimum is aligned and operating as a team and supporting all those that work with us and for us. We’re not very hierarchical either. And I think that really helps. If we can paint the view or the picture of where we want to go, we’re going to take that hill. And then the team comes together to decide how we’re going to take the hill.

That is a great way to get everybody aligned. 

Jef: And as a leadership team, we all say, okay, here’s our thoughts, and they’ll weigh all of that. So it is a team approach pretty much all the time. And we listen to our teams and we trust them as advisors, regardless of what level they’re at. And like Krista said, it’s a leadership team.

I’ve had people on my team that have had questions. That just goes straight to Barry, just goes straight to Krista, just goes straight to Kathleen. Same, because they know that person can help them out. They don’t feel the need to come to me and say, “Can I go talk to this person? Can I go around you?” It’s no, just get the information you need to get.

Krista: Absolutely. Not a lot of hierarchy there. 

Jef: Yeah. 

Claire: I think that’s really empowering. When I think about the best teams that I’ve worked on, it’s when I feel like there’s this high level of trust and where my perspective and my opinion actually matters. It’s I have that voice at the table and I’m also free to experiment and maybe fail and it’s not going to be seen as this negative thing.

And what I think is really great is that it sounds like you’ve created this type of environment on your teams. Where the culture is that people feel safe and that they have a voice at the table and they’re able to share their perspectives and make it a conversation instead of just “Oh, I’m being told what to do.”

Krista: I agree. Although it doesn’t mean we aren’t going to ask hard questions. We ask a lot of questions of our team. Let’s understand why you think that’s the right thing. How does that map to what we’re trying to achieve? And a lot of that is me wanting to learn their perspective because I haven’t been in every situation, even though I’m old as dirt, that it is really not in a Socratic sort of way.

It’s not rude at all. I mean, I feel like we’re a very easygoing group, but it is, we do ask a ton of questions because we want to learn and we want to work through thought process with each individual. 

Jef: Yeah, we want to know there’s not just a well, this is why this is the right answer, right? What’s the point of view?

What’s the business justification behind that? And like Krista said, it’s not just with ourselves to get our own information and learning, but we ask that of the team, right? And we want the team to ask the same questions because we want the people that are newer, a little more junior as you’re moving up to understand.

How do you form a strategy? How do you justify business decisions as you’re moving forward through something so that it’s not just I had an idea and I thought it was fun and you’re able to then advocate for those decisions? Up through executive levels if you need to. 

Claire: It sounds like one of the key takeaways for being a great leader is to ask the right questions.

So asking the right questions and teaching your team to be able to back up their decisions and not like you aren’t going to listen to them, but they have to come to the table with this is why I want to do this. And this is why I think it’s a good idea. Now, I know we have a lot of leaders of teams who listen to this podcast.

So if you’re going to give them one piece of advice for building a strong team that trust them, is able to do great work, and really works autonomously. All these things that it sounds like your team is, what would be the one thing that you tell them to do? 

Krista: You have to know and be able to articulate what the goals are.

If you cannot do that, find someone to help you do that. That will get everyone aligned. As far as who’s on the team. And then I think what I have said to folks, especially coming in as a new leader, I’m going to be 50% responsible for your success. You are 50% responsible. So we need to work on that together.

I need to understand what makes you tick. Is it title? Is it money? Is it challenge? Is it who you get to work with? Is it global assignments? You need to be clear. on what makes you tick and how to reward you in the best way when you are fantastic. 

Claire: Really good. Really good. Okay, Jef. She set the bar high.

Jef: It’s funny because most of my stuff is just about exactly the same, right? If I have to distill it down to one thing, I’m going to say vision. I love that 50/50 approach. I tell all of my people my job is to make sure that whatever skillset or wherever somebody is today, if they are in that exact same place one year from today, I have failed because we need to set these goals to help everybody to continue to grow a goal that you say if we can hit 100% we didn’t really set the goal far enough but 80% does constitute success stretch goals are great but if you set goals that aren’t achievable from the get go you’re setting the team up for failure and that’s not how you want to build a strong team you want to set goals. That when people hit the lowest part of the goal, everybody’s happy.

Krista: And done a great job. Yeah. 

Claire: Yeah, absolutely. Jef, we’ve been talking a lot about vision and how important it is for every team member to really have a part in it. Can you tell us about the academy you helped start? 

Jef: So it’s something that we did in the past. It’s not something that we’re working on now, but we had a time where we were telling all of our clients had to come in with a creative brief.

What do you mean when you say client? When I say client, I mean the people within the marketing organization that are reaching out to us for assets, right? And coming to us. And so a lot of times you have people that don’t really know what they’re looking for. And so a creative brief in any creative job, a creative brief is essential, right?

Get a shared understanding of what is the scope, what are the goals, what does success look like? And a lot of our client base don’t know how to write a creative brief. And we realized that a lot of our team were designers. We can be strategic, stepping back and crafting that Is not something that’s natural to everybody.

And so we started something called Strategy Academy, and we did it every other Friday. It was completely voluntary. Everybody in the group actually came every week. So what we would do is we would pick an existing campaign and reverse engineer it. And so what you do is you sit back and you say, “Okay, the idea is to get who to think, feel, or do what, right? That’s the essence of a creative brief. So you start with your enemy, right? And first you have to identify what is it that you, who is the who, what is the what, but then you start… and you have a column of four C’s it’s customer, culture, competition, and coffee company.

I think coffee would be good though. Why aren’t they doing this thing? You want them to do from a customer perspective from a cultural perspective and cultural can be company culture or it can be socio-political culture, whatever it’s going to be obstacles of why they’re not doing it. And then you look at those and you figure out, okay, which one has the most opportunity for us to figure out a way to overcome and you move that down and then you move into insight and you say, “Okay, now why might they start to do it in spite of this reason?” and you write down as many of those as you can and then you’d sit back and you look and you say, “Okay.”

What is the one that seems like we have the most opportunity here and you pull that down and then you build your strategy around that because you basically say, “Okay, this is a reason that they might do this thing we want them to do. So how do we then get them to do this?” And that’s the formation of the foundation rather of the business strategy.

What a great concept. It’s pretty awesome. And it was, it wasn’t something original. I actually reached out to, cause I’m doing a presentation at MAX and I’m talking about it. And I asked, I reached out to VP. I’m like, “Hey, I want to steal that.” And he goes, “I stole it from a guy who stole it from a guy who stole it from a guy. Give it to the world. And so it’s a really powerful tool.” That’s easy to do. 

Krista: Yeah, very cool, yeah. 

Claire: You’re allowing your team to learn on the ground, they’re being able to ask questions, they’re able to problem-solve. What I’m hearing throughout this whole theme is this ability to really empower your team to go out and do, which I love.

Krista: We’re both nodding like crazy. 

Jef: Yeah. 

Krista: Yeah. 

Jef: Vigorously. 

Claire: It’s perfect. 

Jef: It hurts my neck. 

Claire: So you mentioned your big event that you just got done with. So when we’re talking about innovation and pushing the limit, when it comes to big events like this, we know that there’s going to be some examples of maybe a few fails, even if it’s just a little one.

Can you tell me maybe what lessons you learned going through this latest big event? 

Jef

VMware Explorer… this is the second year that we’ve done it. Last year we created as a new event, and we actually created the thematic concept of it as something that was going to be more evergreen. When we had VMworld, it was a new theme every year.

And we said, no, we want to come up with something that we’re going to play for a while. Yeah. And so we did have the learnings last year, right? We thought about who are we dealing with? But it was more of a broad approach. Whereas this year we really drove the pillars of the theme around specific personas.

It really did help to make a lot of the people there see themselves in the event and find their place. Because each track had its own sort of landscape, and people wanted to be part of the other landscapes as well. 

Krista: So if we’re going to backwards architect that, how do you continue to do a broad base? Design or broad based look or experience that might have.

Jef: I don’t think a fail, but I don’t think we would have been as successful at people feeling as engaged. 

Claire: I love those insights. I think they’re so powerful, especially when translating to just the world of creatives, which is, hey, you need to continue to innovate.

You need to continue to keep things fresh. And one thing that I love that you said, Jef, is like, it wasn’t a fail. It was just how are we doing things differently and in a new way and what are we learning from it, from them. So even just the way you framed it up shows what kind of leader you are for your teams and likely how they respond to change or things that maybe don’t go as planned or pushing the envelope a little bit.

That’s super powerful. I am so enjoying these insights from both of you at VMware. We are going to be right back after this.

Welcome back. This is The Power of Teamwork. Jef and Krista, we’ve been talking about how leaders grow by learning and serving. Krista, I want to hear about the best thing you’ve read or studied or learned that helped you grow. 

Krista: I think for me, I learn by those around me. I am a great question asker, I am. I want to know about you as an individual, what you want your career to look like and learn from you as well as my leader, leaders that are around us.

And I’m going to go back to youth sports for just one second, because I think what youth sports taught me is that you get to choose. If you want to be more or less like your coach and you are only stuck with that coach for a finite amount of time, we don’t always realize that about leaders that we’re with, right?

Like you can choose. I know you dislike that coach. I know you love that coach, whatever it is, but you get to choose you as a human, how you’re going to be. 

Claire: Yeah, and I think that’s a really powerful perspective, and I love that concept of having a finite time on it. If you’re working for a leader that maybe you don’t connect with very well, that can feel like, “Oh my gosh, forever, forever,” yes, but really putting parameters around it and saying, “Okay, for this finite amount of time, what can I choose to learn or what can I choose to do with that experience is a really empowering mindset shift that you can give your people.”

Krista: And I actually had my not best manager much later in my career and at a time where not only I could learn from that, but I could stand up for myself much like you did. I don’t know that I would have had the confidence that early in my career, but definitely you learn a lot both ways. 

Claire: And speaking to confidence, Jef, I’d love to hear from you on this. How do you build your team’s confidence in their own leadership style and their own strengths? 

Jef: I think as much as possible by example. And as Krista said, I learn and copy my leadership skills from not only my leaders, but those around me. You take those cues from others. And I think that with your team, you set that example, because that’s how I’ve learned is from the example that’s been set, you treat people well, you treat people with respect, you nurture.

When you need to, you have hard conversations. I tell all my people, don’t come to me with a problem and leave it at that. Come to me with a situation and what you think you should do. And you don’t have to do it before we talk, but I want you to have an idea. And then I don’t just tell people, do this, right?

It’s, okay, well, what do you think? And I’ll have leading conversations to help them get to a conclusion that helps. It helps them to understand. That approach and build their own leadership skills so that when the next time something happens. Instead of immediately saying, I need to get a leader, I need to have somebody tell me what to do.

They stop and they say, okay, I need to think through this. Here’s what I’m going to do, and then still validate it with a leader if they need to, but it helps them to understand it, to build the skills. 

Krista: But wow, is that frustrating. When you’re the individual and you just want somebody to tell you what to do.

It’s frustrating. And on each team, probably that I’ve led, have had one or two individuals that have been forced into, mostly forced into that kind of a relationship with their manager that they want their manager to tell them. So when I ask them, sometimes over Slack, sometimes live, what do you think? What would you do? What’s your proposal? They get really frustrated. And it’s a hard thing to not only encourage them that this is better for them and you will be better in whatever situation you move to, whether it is direction or not. Yeah, that’s frustrating. Not everybody loves it. 

Jef: But in those cases where you see the people getting frustrated, I will tell them like, “Look, this is why I’m doing this. I’m not cutting you off. What I’m doing is helping you to build this and understand this.”

Claire: What’s something you’ve learned while working on this team? 

Jef: When to let go and let my team take the role, take the responsibility and run with it. For me, it was really about how do you deal with change, not just with the uncertainty of everything that we’ve been going through.

But change throughout leadership, I’m one of two constants in the entire leadership team and I made a promise to my team when the acquisition is announced that I was going to stay no matter what, because I wanted to give that constant and having everybody else that came in and just immediate was like, “No, the team is what’s important. We’re doing this, and I feel incredibly fortunate to be a part of this leadership team, I would go work with any of them anywhere again.” How you can take a leadership team, change how the team works foundationally, but keep it really successful, keep the team really stoked and engaged. It’s been huge.

Krista: Where I did get to have some learning is in the uncertainty piece of it. And how do we handle uncertainty? As a leadership team, when you decide you’re gonna be into the trenches with someone you’re in it and this team has been above and beyond learning together, supporting each other. The thing I’ve learned about myself working on teams is that I actually have the ability to be flexible — to fit the team, no matter how different they are. 

Claire: Yeah. Just one more question — what does teamwork mean to you? 

Krista: Teamwork is the ability to play the role you have been assigned, but also be able to backstop everybody else. 

Jef: Teamwork means to me having a team where everybody is willing to roll up their sleeves, work towards a common goal, nothing is beneath anybody, and you just basically work to that all ships rise mentality.

Claire: I’ve loved chatting with both of you today. I think the biggest takeaway for me was that both of you went into uncertainty and came out comrades. I think that’s the most powerful lesson that a lot of us can take away is that it doesn’t matter the circumstance we’re walking into. That we can come out of it on the other side in a really positive way. I’ve loved getting to know both of you. 

Krista: Thank you so much. This was super fun. 

Jef: Yeah, thank you for having us. 

Claire: Thank you both for being here. Let’s team up again soon.
Ending VO:The Power of Teamwork is brought to you by Adobe. Leaders in collaboration for over 40 years. Please rate and review the podcast, and we’d love to have you subscribe. To learn more about The Power of Teamwork and the guests from this episode, visit powerofteamworkpodcast.com. Thanks for listening.